@prologic@twtxt.net Yeah, that thing with (#hash;#originalHash) would also work.

Maybe I’m being a bit too purist/minimalistic here. As I said before (in one of the 1372739 posts on this topic – or maybe I didn’t even send that twt, I don’t remember 😅), I never really liked hashes to begin with. They aren’t super hard to implement but they are kind of against the beauty of the original twtxt – because you need special client support for them. It’s not something that you could write manually in your twtxt.txt file. With @sorenpeter@darch.dk’s proposal, though, that would be possible.

I don’t know … maybe it’s just me. 🥴

I’m also being a bit selfish, to be honest: Implementing (#hash;#originalHash) in jenny for editing your own feed would not be a no-brainer. (Editing is already kind of unsupported, actually.) It wouldn’t be a problem to implement it for fetching other people’s feeds, though.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com Btw, I’m also open to ideas for this tool and welcome any contributions 👌

@bender@twtxt.net It’s just a simple twtxt2html and scp … it goes like:

twtxt2html $HOME/path/to/local_twtxt_dir/twtxt.txt > $HOME/path/to/local_twtxt_dir/log.html && \
scp $HOME/path/to/local_twtxt_dir/log.html user@remotehost:/path/to/static_files_dir/

I’ve been lazy to add it to my publish_command script, now I can just copy/pasta from the twt 😅

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I did the same. jenny fetches archives, yes, but that twtxt I am referring about is no longer. If you fetch it, but I don’t, there is certainly something going on…

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I did started from scratch, today. I using am commit 6e8ce5afdabd5eac22eae4275407b3bd2a167daf (HEAD -> main, origin/main, origin/HEAD), I keep myself up-to-date, LOL. Still, that specific twtxt (o6dsrga) is no longer.

@quark@ferengi.one

Since jenny can’t fetch archived twtxts

I wiped my entire maildir and re-fetched everything. I did that recently because @aelaraji@aelaraji.com asked me to 😅, but I guess I also did this back in 2023.

What did you do to make yours work?

jenny does fetch archived feeds during the normal jenny -f operation. Only when using the recently implemented --fetch-context, archived feeds are not fetched (yet). That was an oversight and I intend to fix that.

@sorenpeter@darch.dk It’s nobody’s fault! 😇 It’s all part of the fun with them Ones and Zeros

@prologic@twtxt.net, your first twtxt ever was o6dsrga, but I can’t find the source for it (the raw file). I reset everything, and re-fetched fresh feeds (allegedly including archives). Where is it?

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I figured it will be something like this, yet, you were able to reply just fine, and I wasn’t. Looking at your twtxt.txt I see this line:

2024-09-16T17:37:14+00:00	(#o6dsrga) @<prologic https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt>

@<quark https://ferengi.one/twtxt.txt> This is what I get. 🤔

Which is using the right hash. Mine, on the other hand, when I replied to the original, old style message (Message-Id: <o6dsrga>), looks like this:

2024-09-16T16:42:27+00:00	(#o) @<prologic https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt> this was your first twtxt. Cool! :-P

What did you do to make yours work? I simply went to the oldest @prologic@twtxt.net’s entry on my Maildir, and replied to it (jenny set the reply-to hash to #o, even though the Message-Id is o6dsrga). Since jenny can’t fetch archived twtxts, how could I go to re-fetch everything? And, most importantly, would re-fetching fix the Message-Id:?

@prologic@twtxt.net you will always be replying to OP - that is what the twthash is a shorthand for, it it not?!

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I’m glad you like it. A mention (@<movq https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt>) is also long, but we live with it anyway. In a way a replyto: is just a mention of a twt instead of a feed/person. Maybe we chould even model the syntax for replies on mentions: (#<2024-09-17T08:39:18Z https://www.eksempel.dk/twtxt.txt>) ?!

@mckinley@twtxt.net Yes, changing domains is be a problem if you tie your identity to an https url. But I also worry about being stuck with a key I can’t rotate. Whatever gets used, it would be nice to be able to rotate identities. I like @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org’s idea for that.

Thank you @movq@www.uninformativ.de Things are working again!! 🙏

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I’d guess the same goes for all twtxt.social feeds… I can’t see bender’s archived twts either, didn’t check for the others.

This is how my original message shows up on jenny:

From: quark <quark>
Subject: (#o) @prologic this was your first twtxt. Cool! :-P
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 12:42:27 -0400
Message-Id: <k7imvia@twtxt>
X-twtxt-feed-url: https://ferengi.one/twtxt.txt

(#o) @<prologic https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt> this was your first twtxt. Cool! :-P

Hmm… I replied to this message:

From: prologic <prologic>
Subject: Hello World! 😊
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 08:39:52 -0400
Message-Id: <o6dsrga>
X-twtxt-feed-url: https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt

Hello World! 😊

And see how the hash shows… Is it because that hash isn’t longer used?

@prologic@twtxt.net this was your first twtxt. Cool! :-P

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I wiped both ~/.cache/jenny and my maildir_target when I tried to reset things. Still got wrecked 😅

If it’s not too much to ask, could you backup or/change your maildir_target and give it a try with an empty directory?

@prologic@twtxt.net

PS: I still can’t get your and bender’s archived twts (at least the ones I’ve noticed), nor can I --fetch-context on replays to them. your oldest is the one from 2024-06-14 18:22 … I can see lyse’s tho! but I doubt this is related the edit issue but this helps with something.

@prologic@twtxt.net I can’t pinpoint the exact cause but here are a couple of symptoms I observed:

• It all started with a LOT of his old twts starting back in 2020 showing in a weird way, some were empty others were duplicates and a lot more got marked for deletion by neomutt with the D tag.
  
• After trying to restart things with a fresh Maildir, I couldn’t fetch a lot of twts, even mine which was a replay to one of his. but then I was able to after temporarily deleting his link from my follow file.
  

then @quark@ferengi.one and @bender@twtxt.net pointed out the inconsistent from: + feed url and the twt edit

@movq@www.uninformativ.de we can shorten it by six characters, with (r:https://...). 😅

@sorenpeter@darch.dk

1. (replyto:http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)
   

I think I like this a lot. 🤔

The problem with using hashes always was that they’re “one-directional”: You can construct a hash from URL + timestamp + twt, but you cannot do the inverse. When I see “, I have no idea what that could possibly refer to.

But of course something like (replyto:http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z) has all the information you need. This could simplify twt/feed discovery quite a bit, couldn’t it? 🤔 That thing that I just implemented – jenny asking some Yarn pod for some twt hash – would not be necessary anymore. Clients could easily and automatically fetch complete threads instead of requiring the user to follow all relevant feeds.

Only using the timestamp to identify a twt also solves the edit problem.

It even is better for non-Yarn clients, because you now don’t have to read, understand, and implement a “twt hash specification” before you can reply to someone.

The only problem, really, is that (replyto:http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z) is so long. Clients would have to try harder to hide this. 😅

@prologic@twtxt.net I am going to light some candles this weekend to “La Virgen de Macarena” to make it happen! :-D

@prologic@twtxt.net you need to catch up with my twtxts, mate. :-P

@quark@ferengi.one We will fix this soon™ 🔜

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com So what is it about @sorenpeter@darch.dk’s feed that’s screwed with your client? (Jenny?) 🤔 Kind of curious now 🤣

@prologic@twtxt.net by the way and just in case… is the metadata in tour twtxt.txt file, pointing at your rotated feed files formatted as prev = hash twtxt.txt/n instead of a link by design? I couldn’t fetch any, nor can I do a –fetch-context on replays to your old twts.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com grats! See how much trouble an edited twtxt can cause? Wish there was a simpler solution. Alas, I don’t have much hope.

@prologic@twtxt.net Nah! I don’t do news feeds 🤣 I gave some a try back then but it was just way too much noise. I have a separate app for RSS feeds I want to follow. None of them mention AI except for one article about the author’s fight back against the crawlers, I believe I’ve mentioned it before.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I can have more than one Yarn, correct? Like:

"yarn_pods_for_discovery": ["https://twtxt.net", "https://txt.sour.is"],

I mean, this: https://darch.dk/timeline/replies?url=http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com make sense, probably. The twtxt was already on my Maildir, that’s why I can fetch it. I fetch every 3 minutes (sssh, don’t tell anyone!). LOL!

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com check “Replies”. :-D

@bender@twtxt.net I can’t see ANY of those LOL not even a broken thread. The whole Thread went Poof!! as if it has never happened …

@quark@ferengi.one No can do! I can’t see any of the replies to that thread, not even mine LOL. let me se if I can fetch @sorenpeter@darch.dk ’s feed with the https link.

More:

Subject: The [tag URI scheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_URI_scheme) looks interesting. I like that it human read- and writable. And since we already got the timestamp in the twtxt.txt it would be
        somewhat trivial to parse. But there are still the issue with what the name/id should be... Maybe it doesn't have to bee that stick? Instead of using `tag:` as the prefix/protocol, it would more it clear
        what we are talking about by using `in-reply-to:` (https://indieweb.org/in-reply-to) or `replyto:` similar to `mailto:` 1. `(reply:sorenpeter@darch.dk,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)' 2.
        `(in-reply-to:darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)' 2. `(replyto:http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)' I know it's longer that 7-11 characters, but it's self-explaining when looking at the
        twtxt.txt in the raw, and the cases above can all be caught with this regex: `\([\w-]*reply[\w-]*\:` Is this something that would work?

Subject: The [tag URI scheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_URI_scheme) looks interesting. I like that it human read- and writable. And since we already got the timestamp in the twtxt.txt it would be
        somewhat trivial to parse. But there are still the issue with what the name/id should be... Maybe it doesn't have to bee that stick? Instead of using `tag:` as the prefix/protocol, it would more it clear
        what we are talking about by using `in-reply-to:` (https://indieweb.org/in-reply-to) or `replyto:` similar to `mailto:` 1. `(reply:sorenpeter@darch.dk,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)` 2.
        `(in-reply-to:darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)` 3. `(replyto:http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)` I know it's longer that 7-11 characters, but it's self-explaining when looking at the
        twtxt.txt in the raw, and the cases above can all be caught with this regex: `\([\w-]*reply[\w-]*\:` Is this something that would work?

Notice the difference? Soren edited, and broke everything.

See:

Message-Id: <hns535a@twtxt>
X-twtxt-feed-url: https://darch.dk/twtxt.txt
In-Reply-To: <pvju5cq@twtxt>

And

Message-Id: <weadxga@twtxt>
X-twtxt-feed-url: http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt
In-Reply-To: <pvju5cq@twtxt>

Two feed URLs, one HTTPS, the other HTTP.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com no, it is not just you. Do fetch the parent with jenny, and you will see there are two messages with different hash. Soren did something funky, for sure.

@quark@ferengi.one here is an example: This Thread is not showing up in Mutt 🤔 Something is off!

I’ll set up jenny and mutt on another computer and see how it goes from there.

@aelaraji@aelaraji.com hmm, I see all of your twtxts just fine. Now, that’s a puzzle!

@sorenpeter@darch.dk

Also what are the change that the same human will make two different posts within the same second?!

Just out of curiosity, What would happen someday if I (maybe trolling) edit my twtxt.txt-file manually and switch/switch a couple of twt timestamps, or add in 3 different twts manually with the same time stamp?

@prologic@twtxt.net It’s all I’m using … I have barely touched any other social media since I’ve discovered Twtxt back in April 😂 maybe a little bit of Mastodon and IRC, bluesky even less, but nothing else worth mentioning.

@prologic@twtxt.net didn’t it already? or is it just me and my social bubble? 🤔

@mckinley@twtxt.net Thanks for the feedback.

1. Yeah I agrees that nick sound not be part of syntax. Any valid URL to a twtxt.txt-file should be enough and is more clear, so it is not confused with a email (one of the the issues with webfinger and fedivese handles)
   
2. I think any valid URL would work, since we are not bound to look for exact matches. Accepting both http and https as well as a gemni and gophe could all work as long as the path to the twtxt.txt is the same.
   
3. My idea is that you quote the timestamp as it is in the original twtxt.txt that you are referring to, so you can do it by simply copy/pasting. Also what are the change that the same human will make two different posts within the same second?!
   

Regarding the whole cryptographic keys for identity, to me it seems like an unnecessary layer of complexity. If you move to a new house or city you tell people that you moved - you can do the same in a twtxt.txt. Just post something like “I move to this new URL, please follow me there!” I did that with my feeds at least twice, and you guys still seem to read my posts:)

The tag URI scheme looks interesting. I like that it human read- and writable. And since we already got the timestamp in the twtxt.txt it would be somewhat trivial to parse. But there are still the issue with what the name/id should be… Maybe it doesn’t have to bee that stick?

Instead of using tag: as the prefix/protocol, it would more it clear what we are talking about by using in-reply-to: (https://indieweb.org/in-reply-to) or replyto: similar to mailto:

1. (reply:sorenpeter@darch.dk,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)
   
2. (in-reply-to:darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)
   
3. (replyto:http://darch.dk/twtxt.txt,2024-09-15T12:06:27Z)
   

I know it’s longer that 7-11 characters, but it’s self-explaining when looking at the twtxt.txt in the raw, and the cases above can all be caught with this regex: \([\w-]*reply[\w-]*\:

Is this something that would work?

Thank you @aelaraji@aelaraji.com, I’m glad you like it. I use PHP because it’s everywhere on cheap hosting and no need for the user to log into a terminal to setup it up. Timeline is not mean to be use locally. For that I think something like twtxt2html is a better fit. (and happy to see you using simple.css on you new log page;)

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org TLS won’t help you if you change your domain name. How will people know if it’s really you? Maybe that’s not the biggest problem for something with such low stakes as twtxt, but it’s a reasonable concern that could be solved using signatures from an unchanging cryptographic key.

This idea is the basis of Nostr. Notes can be posted to many relays and every note is signed with your private key. It doesn’t matter where you get the note from, your client can verify its authenticity. That way, relays don’t need to be trusted.

@prologic@twtxt.net Brute force. I just hashed a bunch of versions of both tweets until I found a collision.

I mostly just wanted an excuse to write the program. I don’t know how I feel about actually using super-long hashes; could make the twts annoying to read if you prefer to view them untransformed.

@prologic@twtxt.net earlier you suggested extending hashes to 11 characters, but here’s an argument that they should be even longer than that.

Imagine I found this twt one day at https://example.com/twtxt.txt :

2024-09-14T22:00Z Useful backup command: rsync -a “$HOME” /mnt/backup

Image

and I responded with “(#5dgoirqemeq) Thanks for the tip!”. Then I’ve endorsed the twt, but it could latter get changed to

2024-09-14T22:00Z Useful backup command: rm -rf /some_important_directory

Image

which also has an 11-character base32 hash of 5dgoirqemeq. (I’m using the existing hashing method with https://example.com/twtxt.txt as the feed url, but I’m taking 11 characters instead of 7 from the end of the base32 encoding.)

That’s what I meant by “spoofing” in an earlier twt.

I don’t know if preventing this sort of attack should be a goal, but if it is, the number of bits in the hash should be at least two times log2(number of attempts we want to defend against), where the “two times” is because of the birthday paradox.

Side note: current hashes always end with “a” or “q”, which is a bit wasteful. Maybe we should take the first N characters of the base32 encoding instead of the last N.

Code I used for the above example: https://fossil.falsifian.org/misc/file?name=src/twt_collision/find_collision.c
I only needed to compute 43394987 hashes to find it.

@prx@si3t.ch I haven’t messed with rdomains, but still it might help if you included the command that produced that error (and whether you ran it as root).