@prologic@twtxt.net well…

how would that work exactly?

To my limited knowledge, Keyoxide is an open source project offering different tools for verifying one’s online persona(s). That’s done by either A) creating an Ariande Profile using the web interface, a CLI. or B) Just using your GPG key. Either way, you add in Identity claims to your different profiles, links and whatnot, and finally advertise your profile … Then there is a second set of Mobile/Web clients and CLI your correspondents can use to check your identity claims. I think of them like the front-ends of GPG Keyservers (which keyoxide leverages for verification when you opt for the GPG Key method), where you verify profiles using links, Key IDs and Fingerprints…

Who maintains cox site? Is it centralized or decentralized can be relied upon?

• Maintainers? Definitely not me, but here’s their Git stuff and OpenCollective page …
  
• Both ASP and Keyoxide Webtools can be self-hosted. I don’t see a central authority here… + As mentioned on their FAQ page the whole process can be done manually, so you don’t have to relay on any one/thing if you don’t want to, the whole thing is just another tool for convenience (with a bit of eye candy).
  

Does that mean then that every user is required to have a cox side profile?

Nop. But it looks like a nice option to prove that I’m the same person to whom that may concern if I ever change my Twtxt URL, host/join a yarn pod or if I reach out on other platforms to someone I’ve met in her. Otherwise I’m just happy exchanging GPG keys or confirm the change IRL at a coffee shop or something. 😁

@prologic@twtxt.net a signature IS encryption in reverse. If my private key becomes compromised then they can impersonate me. Being able to manage promotion and revocation of keys needed even in a system where its used for just signatures.

the right way to solve this is to use public/private key(s) where you actually have a public key fingerprint as your feed’s unique identity that never changes.

i would rather it be a random value signed by a key. That way the key can change but the value stays the same.

So this is a great thread. I have been thinking about this too.. and what if we are coming at it from the wrong direction? Identity being tied to a given URL has always been a pain point. If i get a new URL its almost as if i have a new identity because not only am I serving at a new location but all my previous communications are broken because the hashes are all wrong.

What if instead we used this idea of signatures to thread the URLs together into one identity? We keep the URL to Hash in place. Changing that now is basically a no go. But we can create a signature chain that can link identities together. So if i move to a new URL i update the chain hosted by my primary identity to include the new URL. If i have an archived feed that the old URL is now dead, we can point to where it is now hosted and use the current convention of hashing based on the first url:

The signature chain can also be used to rotate to new keys over time. Just sign in a new key or revoke an old one. The prior signatures remain valid within the scope of time the signatures were made and the keys were active.

The signature file can be hosted anywhere as long as it can be fetched by a reasonable protocol. So say we could use a webfinger that directs to the signature file? you have an identity like frank@beans.co that will discover a feed at some URL and a signature chain at another URL. Maybe even include the most recent signing key?

From there the client can auto discover old feeds to link them together into one complete timeline. And the signatures can validate that its all correct.

I like the idea of maybe putting the chain in the feed preamble and keeping the single self contained file.. but wonder if that would cause lots of clutter? The signature chain would be something like a log with what is changing (new key, revoke, add url) and a signature of the change + the previous signature.

# chain: ADDKEY kex14zwrx68cfkg28kjdstvcw4pslazwtgyeueqlg6z7y3f85h29crjsgfmu0w 
# sig: BEGIN SALTPACK SIGNED MESSAGE. ... 
# chain: ADDURL https://txt.sour.is/user/xuu
# sig: BEGIN SALTPACK SIGNED MESSAGE. ...
# chain: REVKEY kex14zwrx68cfkg28kjdstvcw4pslazwtgyeueqlg6z7y3f85h29crjsgfmu0w
# sig: ...

I wonder if bento has slightly missed the key to being a total genius approach to host management. ok hear me out. each node periodically pulls configuration from a coordination node that hosts a binary cache. the admin may make changes and pre-build them maybe kick off an update task manually if they want, but the point is there’s an automated checkin. for my case, the device I have available for coordination isn’t really capable of hosting a binary cache for any of my other machines. the nix store for my dev machine is larger than the entire disk of the coordinator! and due to the yearly heat my best machine can’t be reliably powered on all the time. so i started thinking to myself, “self, what if instead of having a central coordinator we fetched configuration from a reliable git mirror (maybe git+torrent some day) and consume it as a flake. the source could even be swapped out using a flake registry (so you don’t even have to commit to self-hosting anything other than a json file). then managed hosts only have to be setup to consume the registry and the shared flake (which registers the update agent) and DONE?”

@movq@www.uninformativ.de @prologic@twtxt.net Hey! I may have found a silly trick to announce my following to people hosting their feeds on the Gemini space using the requested URI itself instead of relaying on the USER Agent 😂. I’ve copied my current feed over to my (to be) Gemlog for testing. And if I do a jenny -D "gemini://gem.aelaraji.com/twtxt.txt?follower=aelaraji@https://aelaraji.com/twtxt.txt" and this happens:

A) As a follower, I get the feed as usual.
B) As the feed owner, I get this in logs:

hostname:1965 - “gemini://gem.aelaraji.com/twtxt.txt?follower=aelaraji@https://aelaraji.com/twtxt.txt” 20 “text/plain;lang=en-US”

You could do the same for Gopher feeds but only if you want to announce yourself by throwing in an error in their logs, then you’ll need a second request to fetch the feed. jenny -D "gopher://gopher.aelaraji.com/twtxt.txt&follower=aelaraji@https:/aelaraji.com/twtxt.txt" gave me this :

gopher.aelaraji.com:70 - [09/Sep/2024:22:08:54 +0000] “GET 0/twtxt.txt&follower=aelaraji@https:/aelaraji.com/twtxt.txt HTTP/1.0” 404 0 “” “Unknown gopher client”

NB: the follower=... string won’t appear in gopher logs after a ? but if I replace it with a + or a & and it works. There will be a missing / after the https:. Probably a client thing.

@mckinley@twtxt.net To answer some of your questions:

Are SSH signatures standardized and are there robust software libraries that can handle them? We’ll need a library in at least Python and Go to provide verified feed support with the currently used clients.

We already have this. Ed25519 libraries exist for all major languages. Aside from using ssh-keygen -Y sign and ssh-keygen -Y verify, you can also use the salty CLI itself (https://git.mills.io/prologic/salty), and I’m sure there are other command-line tools that could be used too.

If we all implemented this, every twt hash would suddenly change and every conversation thread we’ve ever had would at least lose its opening post.

Yes. This would happen, so we’d have to make a decision around this, either a) a cut-off point or b) some way to progressively transition.

how little data is needed for generating the hashes? Instead of the full URL, can we makedo with just the domain (example.net) so we avoid the conflicts with gemini://, https:// and only http:// (like in my own twtxt.txt) or construct something like like a webfinger id nick@domain (also used by mastodon etc.) from the domain and nick if there, else use domain as nick as well

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org This looks like a nice way to do it.

Another thought: if clients can’t agree on the url (for example, if we switch to this new way, but some old clients still do it the old way), that could be mitigated by computing many hashes for each twt: one for every url in the feed. So, if a feed has three URLs, every twt is associated with three hashes when it comes time to put threads together.

A client stills need to choose one url to use for the hash when composing a reply, but this might add some breathing room if there’s a period when clients are doing different things.

(From what I understand of jenny, this would be difficult to implement there since each pseudo-email can only have one msgid to match to the in-reply-to headers. I don’t know about other clients.)

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org In my opinion it was a mistake that we defined the first url field in the feed to define the URL for hashing. It should have been the last encountered one. Then, assuming append-style feeds, you could override the old URL with a new one from a certain point on:

# url = https://example.com/alias/txtxt.txt
# url = https://example.com/initial/twtxt.txt
<message 1 uses the initial URL>
<message 2 uses the initial URL, too>
# url = https://example.com/new/twtxt.txt
<message 3 uses the new URL>
# url = https://example.com/brand-new/twtxt.txt
<message 4 uses the brand new URL>

In theory, the same could be done for prepend-style feeds. They do exist, I’ve come around them. The parser would just have to calculate the hashes afterwards and not immediately.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de Another idea: just hash the feed url and time, without the message content. And don’t twt more than once per second.

Maybe you could even just use the time, and rely on @-mentions to disambiguate. Not sure how that would work out.

Though I kind of like the idea of twts being immutable. At least, it’s clear which version of a twt you’re replying to (assuming nobody is engineering hash collisions).

@prologic@twtxt.net Some criticisms and a possible alternative direction:

1. Key rotation. I’m not a security person, but my understanding is that it’s good to be able to give keys an expiry date and replace them with new ones periodically.

2. It makes maintaining a feed more complicated. Now instead of just needing to put a file on a web server (and scan the logs for user agents) I also need to do this. What brought me to twtxt was its radical simplicity.

Instead, maybe we should think about a way to allow old urls to be rotated out? Like, my metadata could somehow say that X used to be my primary URL, but going forward from date D onward my primary url is Y. (Or, if you really want to use public key cryptography, maybe something similar could be used for key rotation there.)

It’s nice that your scheme would add a way to verify the twts you download, but https is supposed to do that anyway. If you don’t trust https to do that (maybe you don’t like relying on root CAs?) then maybe your preferred solution should be reflected by your primary feed url. E.g. if you prefer the security offered by IPFS, then maybe an IPNS url would do the trick. The fact that feed locations are URLs gives some flexibility. (But then rotation is still an issue, if I understand ipns right.)

On the Subject of Feed Identities; I propose the following:

1. Generate a Private/Public ED25519 key pair
   
2. Use this key pair to sign your Twtxt feed
   
3. Use it as your feed’s identity in place of # url = as # key = ...
   

For example:

$ ssh-keygen -f prologic@twtxt.net
$ ssh-keygen -Y sign -n prologic@twtxt.net -f prologic@twtxt.net twtxt.txt

And your feed would looke like:

# nick        = prologic
# key         = SHA256:23OiSfuPC4zT0lVh1Y+XKh+KjP59brhZfxFHIYZkbZs
# sig         = twtxt.txt.sig
# prev        = j6bmlgq twtxt.txt/1
# avatar      = https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/avatar#gdoicerjkh3nynyxnxawwwkearr4qllkoevtwb3req4hojx5z43q
# description = "Problems are Solved by Method" 🇦🇺👨‍💻👨‍🦯🏹♔ 🏓⚯ 👨‍👩‍👧‍👧🛥 -- James Mills (operator of twtxt.net / creator of Yarn.social 🧶)

2024-06-14T18:22:17Z	(#nef6byq) @<bender https://twtxt.net/user/bender/twtxt.txt>  Hehe thanks! 😅 Still gotta sort out some other bugs, but that's tomorrows job 🤞
...

Twt Hash extension would change of course to use a feed’s ED25519 public key fingerprint.

@bender@twtxt.net Yes, they do 🤣 Implicitly, or threading would never work at all 😅 Nor lookups 🤣 They are used as keys. Think of them like a primary key in a database or index. I totally get where you’re coming from, but there are trade-offs with using Message/Thread Ids as opposed to Content Addressing (like we do) and I believe we would just encounter other problems by doing so.

My money is on extending the Twt Subject extension to support more (optional) advanced “subjects”; i.e: indicating you edited a Twt you already published in your feed as @falsifian@www.falsifian.org indicated 👌

Then we have a secondary (bure much rarer) problem of the “identity” of a feed in the first place. Using the URL you fetch the feed from as @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org ’s client tt seems to do or using the # url = metadata field as every other client does (according to the spec) is problematic when you decide to change where you host your feed. In fact the spec says:

Users are advised to not change the first one of their urls. If they move their feed to a new URL, they should add this new URL as a new url field.

See Choosing the Feed URL – This is one of our longest debates and challenges, and I think (_I suspect along with @xuu@txt.sour.is _) that the right way to solve this is to use public/private key(s) where you actually have a public key fingerprint as your feed’s unique identity that never changes.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de @prologic@twtxt.net Another option would be: when you edit a twt, prefix the new one with (#[old hash]) and some indication that it’s an edited version of the original tweet with that hash. E.g. if the hash used to be abcd123, the new version should start “(#abcd123) (redit)”.

What I like about this is that clients that don’t know this convention will still stick it in the same thread. And I feel it’s in the spirit of the old pre-hash (subject) convention, though that’s before my time.

I guess it may not work when the edited twt itself is a reply, and there are replies to it. Maybe that could be solved by letting twts have more than one (subject) prefix.

But the great thing about the current system is that nobody can spoof message IDs.

I don’t think twtxt hashes are long enough to prevent spoofing.

All this hash breakage made me wonder if we should try to introduce “message IDs” after all. 😅

But the great thing about the current system is that nobody can spoof message IDs. 🤔 When you think about it, message IDs in e-mails only work because (almost) everybody plays fair. Nothing stops me from using the same Message-ID header in each and every mail, that would break e-mail threading all the time.

In Yarn, twt hashes are derived from twt content and feed metadata. That is pretty elegant and I’d hate see us lose that property.

If we wanted to allow editing twts, we could do something like this:

2024-09-05T13:37:40+00:00   (~mp6ox4a) Hello world!

Here, mp6ox4a would be a “partial hash”: To get the actual hash of this twt, you’d concatenate the feed’s URL and mp6ox4a and get, say, hlnw5ha. (Pretty similar to the current system.) When people reply to this twt, they would have to do this:

2024-09-05T14:57:14+00:00	(~bpt74ka) (<a href="https://yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz/search?q=%23hlnw5ha">#hlnw5ha</a>) Yes, hello!

That second twt has a partial hash of bpt74ka and is a reply to the full hash hlnw5ha. The author of the “Hello world!” twt could then edit their twt and change it to 2024-09-05T13:37:40+00:00 (~mp6ox4a) Hello friends! or whatever. Threading wouldn’t break.

Would this be worth it? It’s certainly not backwards-compatible. 😂

The actual end-user problem is that I can’t see the thread properly when using neomutt+jenny.

@prologic@twtxt.net I believe you when you say registries as designed today do not crawl. But when I first read the spec, it conjured in my mind a search engine. Now I don’t know how things work out in practice, but just based on reading, I don’t see why it can’t be an API for a crawling search engine. (In fact I don’t see anything in the spec indicating registry servers shouldn’t crawl.)

(I also noticed that https://twtxt.readthedocs.io/en/latest/user/registry.html recommends “The registries should sync each others user list by using the users endpoint”. If I understood that right, registering with one should be enough to appear on others, even if they don’t crawl.)

Does yarnd provide an API for finding twts? Is it similar?

@prologic@twtxt.net How does yarn.social’s API fix the problem of centralization? I still need to know whose API to use.

Say I see a twt beginning (#hash) and I want to look up the start of the thread. Is the idea that if that twt is hosted by a a yarn.social pod, it is likely to know the thread start, so I should query that particular pod for the hash? But what if no yarn.social pods are involved?

The community seems small enough that a registry server should be able to keep up, and I can have a couple of others as backups. Or I could crawl the list of feeds followed by whoever emitted the twt that prompted my query.

I have successfully used registry servers a little bit, e.g. to find a feed that mentioned a tag I was interested in. Was even thinking of making my own, if I get bored of my too many other projects :-)

Serious open (for anyone) question: what makes you follow someone on twtxt? Will you just follow anyone that you come across, simply because that someone using the “decentralised, minimalist microblogging service for hackers” microblog?

@abucci@anthony.buc.ci OMFG! Dear jebus, look at the size of that! :-/ It is just a matter of time until one of those randomly falls on any of us. Just incredible!

Is it really that fucking hard to use decentralized, Self-Hosted tech? 🤔 Or do people just not know how? 😢

For following notifications I would say use webmetion refering to the the line in your twtxt.txt as per: https://darch.dk/mentions-twtxt
Or send them an email, so it would be an idea to add a # contact = mailto:me@domain.net to ones twtxt.txt

@prologic@twtxt.net They are but then again Apple’s is doing things Apple’s way 😆 Hint: punishing devs and users for using alternative stores.

@bender@twtxt.net F-Droid is a platform/app that lets you side-load/install and serve android apps without the need for Google’s play store’s blessing. I also use Aurora Store to install Play Store’s apps without having to associate my phone with Google account. 🦾 it makes me feel good about myself 🥸

my whole life, i’ve been leaving things behind. venturing far away from everything that i know. these days, i’m trying to find connections that i can still rekindle, mend, and remember. this is much much harder than what i was used to

Anyone had any intereractions with @cuaxolotl@sunshinegardens.org yet? Or are they using a client that doesn’t know how to detect clients following them properly? Hmmm 🧐

Found this in an old copyright notice from 1993:

These images are not for use with the Microsoft Windows environment. Using these patterns in a Windows environment consitutes a copyright violation.

Someone clearly didn’t like Windows.

@mckinley@twtxt.net agevault uses age, allegedly very secure (aiming to replace pgp/gpg). Comparing it with gocryptfs, from the user perspective, agevault seems simpler, though CLI exclusive. As the repository states, “Like age, it features no config options, allowing for a straightforward secure flow”. It would also run in all major OS platforms out of the box.

But agevault is also very new. Though age has been around for a while now, I don’t see an “audited” link (neither on agevault, nor age).

This tool, using age is pretty neat: https://github.com/ndavd/agevault. So simple, yet seemingly powerful!

@New_scientist@feeds.twtxt.net It’s great that US regulators have approved launching 40,000 satellites with a 5-year lifespan before we had this kind of information about what’s likely to happen when they start falling out of orbit at a rate of several per hour.

@prologic@twtxt.net My pod, which is running the same commit you are, does not return an error like that. It returns the same HTML it always has. Try it. I nuked my cache before restarting.

Edit: Oh wait, the plot thickens. I do get an error if I use curl or if I use a web browser that isn’t logged in. That’s good!

but everyone is talking about making a computer using scraps that can barely render a few lines of ACII and maybe some non-latin characters as images.

imo the only useful application would be so that I never have to get a new computer again unless mine breaks. i like being able to talk to people from around the world, so its going to have to include internet and video (y’all saw the impact tiktok had on the gaza situation, can’t deny that video is important)

tried out a demo vm setup of nixos, but i really want to level up my server game and provision the whole thing using terranix.

@prologic@twtxt.net I believe you are not seeing the problem I am describing.

Hit this URL in your web browser:

https://twtxt.net/external?nick=lovetocode999&uri=https://socialmphl.com/story19510368/doujin

That’s your pod. I assume you don’t have a user named lovetocode999 on your pod. Yet that URL returns HTTP status 200, and generates HTML, complete with a link to https://socialmphl.com/story19510368/doujin, which is not a twtxt feed (that’s where the twtxt.txt link goes if you click it). That link could be to anything, including porn, criminal stuff, etc, and it will appear to be coming from your twtxt.net domain.

What I am saying is that this is a bug. If there is no user lovetocode999 on the pod, hitting this URL should not return HTTP 200 status, and it should definitely not be generating valid HTML with links in it.

Edit: Oops, I misunderstood the purpose of this /external endpoint. Still, since the uri is not a yarn pod, let alone one with a user named lovetocode999 on it, I stand by the belief that URLs like this should be be generating valid HTML with links to unknown sites. Shouldn’t it be possible to construct a valid target URL from the nick and uri instead of using the pod’s /external endpoint?

@prologic@twtxt.net @bender@twtxt.net I partially agree with bender on this one I think. The way this person is abusing the /external endpoint on my pod seems to be to generate legitimate-looking HTML content for external sites, using a username that does not exist on my pod. One “semantically correct” thing to do would be to error out if that username does not exist on the pod. It’s not unlike having a mail server configured as an open relay at this point.

It would also be very helpful to give the pod administrator control over what’s being fetched this way. I don’t want people using my pod to redirect porn sites or whatever. If I could have something as simple as the ability to blacklist URLs that’d already help.

@lyse@lyse.isobeef.org Interesting. The yarnd --help currently says (for me):

  -R, --open-registrations            whether or not to have open user registgration

meaning it doesn’t give the default setting or warn you that you need to use -R=false and not -R false. It also leaves unclear whether --open-registrations false would work or if you need to do --open-registrations=false. It’s also unclear whether the setting change in the user interface is overridden by the command line arguments, overrides the command line arguments, is persisted across restarts.

Maybe all this is worth posting an issue for additional documentation on the git repo if there isn’t one already.

“registgration” is misspelled that way in the help by the way.

@abucci@anthony.buc.ci You can also use -R=false on the command line or leave it out entirely. When explicitly stating -R=false, there has to be an equal sign. With a space (-R false) it’s somehow parsed as -R which is equivalent to -R=true. O_o Very weird. I’d really like to see an error instead.

I still have to figure out the precedence of the settings.yaml or command line arguments. I’m probably holding it wrong, but it seems to give me different results…

@movq@www.uninformativ.de hmm, I am already using au BufNewFile,BufRead jenny-posting.eml setl completefunc=jenny#CompleteMentions fo-=t wrap, from jenny. How would I go to incorporate that there?

@abucci@anthony.buc.ci Thank you for using Lyse’s Unofficial Yarnd Help Desk: https://lyse.isobeef.org/tmp/yarnd-disable-registrations.png

@movq@www.uninformativ.de, using the branch on topic right now, it works perfect. The only thing I found was that I had to quit neomutt, and re-open, to see the perfect thread. Other than that, I love it!

Because I saw the nick on movq (@prologic@twtxt.net, can’t mention anyone outside this pod, by the way), I looked the user up: https://tilde.pt/~marado/twtxt.txt. I wonder if the “hashes” they are using will work out of the box with jenny.

Talking about jenny, going to play with the latest now. Tata! :-)

👋 Hello @nigergibe@anthony.buc.ci, welcome to Buccipod, a Yarn.social Pod! To get started you may want to check out the pod’s Discover feed to find users to follow and interact with. To follow new users, use the ⨁ Follow button on their profile page or use the Follow form and enter a Twtxt URL. You may also find other feeds of interest via Feeds. Welcome! 🤗

👋 Hello @nigergibe@anthony.buc.ci, welcome to Buccipod, a Yarn.social Pod! To get started you may want to check out the pod’s Discover feed to find users to follow and interact with. To follow new users, use the ⨁ Follow button on their profile page or use the Follow form and enter a Twtxt URL. You may also find other feeds of interest via Feeds. Welcome! 🤗

@bender@twtxt.net What multiplexer do you use? I usually use Tmux and have my prefix mapped to C-a on my local machine and the default C-b on the remote ones so they don’t conflict if it helps.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de confirming that the issue isn’t present when using alacrity. Wow.

Correct, @bender@twtxt.net. Since the very beginning, my twtxt flow is very flawed. But it turns out to be an advantage for this sort of problem. :-) I still use the official (but patched) twtxt client by buckket to actually fetch and fill the cache. I think one of of the patches played around with the error reporting. This way, any problems with fetching or parsing feeds show up immediately. Once I think, I’ve seen enough errors, I unsubscribe.

tt is just a viewer into the cache. The read statuses are stored in a separate database file.

It also happened a few times, that I thought some feed was permanently dead and removed it from my list. But then, others mentioned it, so I resubscribed.

Recovery: 5.00 miles, 00:11:02 average pace, 00:55:11 duration
using the treadmill to slow the pace.
#running #treadmill

i think maybe they got her to add a forward number for sms and used that to activate on another device..