@andros@twtxt.andros.dev You know, I’d really love to see how/if location-based addressing works in practice. I might fork jenny to judy and run both things in parallel for a while … 🤔

@prologic@twtxt.net I have:

• jenny
  
• buckket’s original (patched, or not)
  
• tt/tt2
  
• Timeline
  
• Twtxtory
  
• Yarnd

@prologic@twtxt.net well, this fork will work. I an fork this one with jenny, not so with Yarnd.

Interesting factoid… By inspecting my “followers” list every now and again, I can tell who uses a client like jenny, tt or any other client where fetches are driven by user interactions of invoking the app. What do we call this type of client? Hmmm 🤔 Then I can tell who uses yarnd because they are “seen” more frequently 🤣

@bender@twtxt.net It isn’t @aelaraji@aelaraji.com’s fault at all here 😅 I think the only way I can improve this somewhat is by introducing a similar convergence that I believe @movq@www.uninformativ.de built for Jenny which would fetch the mentioned feed temporarily to see if it contains the subject being replied to (in case it’s not in the cache).

I’ll think about doing this too, but I have to do it carefully so as not to cost too much in terms of resources or performance…

@bender@twtxt.net You said:

as long as those working on clients can reach an agreement on how to move forward. That has proven, though, to be a pickle in the past.

I think this is because we probably need to start thinking about three different aspects to the ecosystem and document them out:

• Specifications (as they are now)
  
• Server recommendations (e.g: Timeline, yarnd, etc)
  
• Client recommendations (e.g: jenny, tt, tt2, twet, etc)

@movq@www.uninformativ.de json and database put together sounds terrifying. i must try jenny

jenny really isn’t well equipped to handle edits of my own twts.

For example, in 2021, this change got introduced:

https://www.uninformativ.de/git/jenny/commit/6b5b25a542c2dd46c002ec5a422137275febc5a1.html

This means that jenny will always ignore my own edits unless I also manually edit its internal “json database”. Annoying.

That change was requested by a user who had the habit of deleting twts or moving them to another mailbox or something. I think that person is long gone and I might revert that change. 🤔

Scratch that, no bug in jenny. There’s actually a test case for this. Python normalizes -00:00 to +00:00, so the negative case never happens.

@david@collantes.us @andros@twtxt.andros.dev The correct hash would be si4er3q. See https://twtxt.dev/exts/twt-hash.html, a timezone offset of +00:00 or -00:00 must be replaced by Z.

(That said, there’s a bug in jenny as well. It only replaces +00:00, not -00:00. 🤡)

@movq@www.uninformativ.de completely off-topic, this conversation is so broken at twtxt.net! With this one, it’s like the third one that has issues on Yarnd, but it is all fine for me on jenny.

i have got to try the jenny yarn client it looks so fun and old school……..

@andros@twtxt.andros.dev jenny can and, IIRC, Yarn also supports it. 🤔

I think @movq@www.uninformativ.de removed support for it in jenny. 🫠

@andros@twtxt.andros.dev I believe you have just reproduced the bug… it looks like you’ve replayed to a twt but the hash is wrong. I can see the hash here from Jenny, but it doesn’t look like it corresponds to any{twt,thing}. if you check it out on any yarn instance it won’t look like a replay.

@andros@twtxt.andros.dev hmmm… pretty strange, isn’t it? replaying to threads worked perfectly, I’ve only had that problem trying to replay to a twt that was part of a thread.

As an example, this one is a Fork-Replay from Jenny. My next twt will be a replay to this exact twt but from twtxt-el as a test.
Then I’will file an issue if it doesn’t behave the way it’s supposed to. Cheers!

Yes, error on my side. All of the sudden jenny refused to show me my own posts. Had to recreate mailbox (got rid of cache too) to make it work.

@prologic@twtxt.net LMAO thats so funny i need to try jenny i was trying it but i couldn’t figure out my twtxt sync script for it

trying to set up @movq@www.uninformativ.de’s jenny client… currently trying to find where twtxt files are stored on the server so i can set up the scp script i have for this

I mean bug where jenny don’t know about these id’s and tried to request from twtxt.net (prologic sent access logs)

@doesnmppsflt@doesnm.p.psf.lt Not sure which bug you’re referring to. 🤔 (Did I forget?)

Those long IDs like (#113797927355322708) are simply part of that feed. Looks like the author just dumps ActivityPub IDs into twtxt. I think this used to work in the past, but the corresponding spec (https://twtxt.dev/exts/hash-tag.html) has been deprecated and jenny doesn’t support – actually, jenny never supported that.

jenny can only group threads by exactly one criterium (because it writes a Message-ID into the mail file) and that’s the regular twt hash. So, anything else, like people doing “#CoolTopic”, isn’t possible.

Hello @movq@uninformativ.de . Did you fixed jenny bug which causes fetching long ids from yarn instances on feeds like https://ciberlandia.pt/@marado.txt ? I’m asking because i want to store links in brackets on some of my posts and don’t want to confuse jenny users

For the record; we consider the new authority on the Twtxt spec(s) going forward (has been for some years actually) to be implementers / primary maintainers of widely used clients. To date that is:

• yarnd @prologic@twtxt.net (me and others)
  
• jenny @movq@www.uninformativ.de
  
• tt @lyse@lyse.isobeef.org
  
• Timeline @darch@neotxt.dk / @eapl.me@eapl.me and others
  
• twtxt-el? – @andros@twtxt.andros.dev
  

Full list of supported and widely used clients can be found at https://twtxt.dev/clients.html – which I note a few above are actually missing from this page haha 🤣

@<@chyrp.doesnm.cc https://chyrp.doesnm.cc/twtxt.txt> this is broken in jenny too, I figure. No nick breaks things.

Android phone with 4GB RAM. Jenny+mutt runned in Termux. With change #tho4wpq from aeralaji mutt loading 3-5 seconds

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt here! create a $HOME/.cache/mutt/twtxt/ directory for example and then add this set header_cache = $HOME/.cache/mutt/twtxt/ to your muttrc (the one you have set up for or use with jenny if you’re using different ones). That’s what helped me with that.

Ref: http://www.mutt.org/doc/manual/#header-caching

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt right, jenny isn’t the problem, it’s your platform of choice. The fetching of archives doesn’t happen all time (once only, right @movq?), but yes, depending on the amount of feeds you follow that first time might take a while.

Tried migrating to jenny… So seems it not suitable for my phone. Fetch command fetched archived feeds so i have 37k+ entries and mutt hangs for several seconds for loading this. Also i don’t like hardcoded paths for config and follow file

@prologic@twtxt.net I’m grateful for this accident. I find browsing twtxt.net useful even though I don’t have an account there. I do it when I can’t use Jenny because I only have my phone, or if I want to see messages I might have missed. I know it’s not guaranteed to catch everything, but it’s pretty good, even if it’s not intentional.

@Codebuzz@www.codebuzz.nl I use Jenny to add to a local copy of my twtxt.txt file, and then manually push it to my web servers. I prefer timestamps to end with “Z” rather than “+00:00” so I modified Jenny to use that format. I mostly follow conversations using Jenny, but sometimes I check twtxt.net, which could catch twts I missed.

@bender@twtxt.net @prologic@twtxt.net I’m not exactly asking yarnd to change. If you are okay with the way it displayed my twts, then by all means, leave it as is. I hope you won’t mind if I continue to write things like 1/4 to mean “first out of four”.

What has text/markdown got to do with this? I don’t think Markdown says anything about replacing 1/4 with ¼, or other similar transformations. It’s not needed, because ¼ is already a unicode character that can simply be directly inserted into the text file.

What’s wrong with my original suggestion of doing the transformation before the text hits the twtxt.txt file? @prologic@twtxt.net, I think it would achieve what you are trying to achieve with this content-type thing: if someone writes 1/4 on a yarnd instance or any other client that wants to do this, it would get transformed, and other clients simply wouldn’t do the transformation. Every client that supports displaying unicode characters, including Jenny, would then display ¼ as ¼.

Alternatively, if you prefer yarnd to pretty-print all twts nicely, even ones from simpler clients, that’s fine too and you don’t need to change anything. My 1/4 -> ¼ thing is nothing more than a minor irritation which probably isn’t worth overthinking.

@movq@www.uninformativ.de How hard would it be to implement something like (#<2024-10-25T17:15:50Z https://www.uninformativ.de/twtxt.txt>)in jenny as a replacement for (#twthash) and have it not care about if is http(s) or a g-protocol?

@bmallred@staystrong.run Sweeeeeeeeeeet!! Just gave it a try and sorted my Jenny follow list; Thank you !!

@prologic@twtxt.net I wanted to wait for things to settle down. It’s still unclear to me in which direction we’re going – and if that new/different stuff is even possible to implement in jenny. That said, I’ve been really busy with private stuff these last few days, I’ve lost track of most of what you’re discussing. 🥴

@movq@www.uninformativ.de I’d love it if you write up a page for jenny 🙏 at https://twtxt.dev 🤞

I believe I’d missed an f:

~/src/jenny $ git diff
diff --git a/jenny b/jenny
index ada8da2..8ae9a06 100755
--- a/jenny
+++ b/jenny
@@ -1194,7 +1194,7 @@ if __name__ == '__main__':
     if args.edit:
	edit_twt_file(app)
     elif args.fetch:
-        with DirectoryLock(f'/tmp/jenny-{getuser()}.run'):
+        with DirectoryLock(expanduser(f'~/tmp/jenny-{getuser()}.run')):
             retrieve_all(app)
     elif args.last_seen:
	 print('Feeds last seen at (times are local time), oldest first:')

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt I’ve just given it a try on android/termux and got it to work, I can’t promise it won’t break something else (because i definitely don’t know what I’m doing) but here’s what I broke 😅:

~/src/jenny $ git diff
diff --git a/jenny b/jenny
index ada8da2..8ae9a06 100755
--- a/jenny
+++ b/jenny
@@ -1194,7 +1194,7 @@ if __name__ == '__main__':
     if args.edit:
	edit_twt_file(app)
     elif args.fetch:
-        with DirectoryLock(f'/tmp/jenny-{getuser()}.run'):
+        with DirectoryLock(expanduser('~/tmp/jenny-{getuser()}.run')):
             retrieve_all(app)
     elif args.last_seen:
	 print('Feeds last seen at (times are local time), oldest first:')

and of course make sure you mkdir ~/tmp

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt twt probably isn’t the best client I’m afraid. It doesn’t really cache twts by their key (hash) to display threads properly. Jenny however does 👌

Only with dovecot xD. For mail im use android native mail client and not mutt. And jenny display some errors with found some files and /tmp dir (android dont have /tmp)

@doesnm@doesnm.p.psf.lt see jenny.

#fzf is the new emacs: a tool with a simple purpose that has evolved to include an #email client. https://sr.ht/~rakoo/omail/

I’m being a little silly, of course. fzf doesn’t actually check your email, but it appears to be basically the whole user interface for that mail program, with #mblaze wrangling the emails.

I’ve been thinking about how I handle my email, and am tempted to make something similar. (When I originally saw this linked the author was presenting it as an example tweaked to their own needs, encouraging people to make their own.)

This approach could surely also be combined with #jenny, taking the place of (neo)mutt. For example mblaze’s mthread tool presents a threaded discussion with indentation.

@bender@twtxt.net

Sorry, you’re right, I should have used numbers!

I’m don’t understand what “preserve the original hash” could mean other than “make sure there’s still a twt in the feed with that hash”. Maybe the text could be clarified somehow.

I’m also not sure what you mean by markdown already being part of it. Of course people can already use Markdown, just like presumably nothing stopped people from using (twt subjects) before they were formally described. But it’s not universal; e.g. as a jenny user I just see the plain text.

Had to build a list of all feeds (that I follow) and all twts in them and there are two collisions already:

$ ./stats
Saw 58263 hashes
7fqcxaa
  https://twtxt.net/user/justamoment/twtxt.txt
  https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt
ntnakqa
  https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt
  https://twtxt.net/user/thecanine/twtxt.txt

Namely:

$ jenny -D https://twtxt.net/user/justamoment/twtxt.txt | grep 7fqcxaa

[7fqcxaa] [2022-12-28 04:53:30+00:00] [(#pmuqoca) @prologic@twtxt.net I checked the GitHub discussion, it became a request to join forces.

Do you plan on having them join?

Also for the name, how about:

• “progit” or “prologit” (prologic official hard fork)
  
• “git-stance” (git instance)
  
• “GitTree” (Gitea inspired, maybe to related)
  
• “Gitomata” (git automata)
  
• “Git.Source”
  
• “Forgor” (forgit is taken so I forgor) 🤣
  
• “SweetGit” (as salty chat)
  
• “Pepper Git” (other ingredients) 😉
  
• “GitHeart” (core of git with a GitHub sounding name)
  
• “GitTaka” (With music in mind)
  

Ok, enough fun… Hope this helps sprout some ideas from others if nothing is to your taste.]

$ jenny -D https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/5 | grep 7fqcxaa

[7fqcxaa] [2022-02-25 21:14:45+00:00] [(#bqq6fxq) It’s handled by blue Monday]

And:

$ jenny -D https://twtxt.net/user/thecanine/twtxt.txt | grep ntnakqa
[ntnakqa] [2022-01-23 10:24:09+00:00] [(#2wh7r4q) <a href="https://yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz/external?uri=https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt">@prologic<em>@twtxt.net</em></a> I know, I was just hoping it might have also gotten fixed by that change, by some kind of backend miracles. 😂]

$ jenny -D https://twtxt.net/user/prologic/twtxt.txt/1 | grep ntnakqa
[ntnakqa] [2024-02-27 05:51:50+00:00] [(#otuupfq) <a href="https://yarn.girlonthemoon.xyz/external?uri=https://twtxt.net/user/shreyan/twtxt.txt">@shreyan<em>@twtxt.net</em></a>  Ahh 👌]

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org Do you have specifics about the GRPD law about this?

Would the GDPR would apply to a one-person client like jenny? I seriously hope not. If someone asks me to delete an email they sent me, I don’t think I have to honour that request, no matter how European they are.

I’m not sure myself now. So let’s find out whether parts of the GDPR actually apply to a truly decentralised system? 🤔

@prologic@twtxt.net Do you have a link to some past discussion?

Would the GDPR would apply to a one-person client like jenny? I seriously hope not. If someone asks me to delete an email they sent me, I don’t think I have to honour that request, no matter how European they are.

I am really bothered by the idea that someone could force me to delete my private, personal record of my interactions with them. Would I have to delete my journal entries about them too if they asked?

Maybe a public-facing client like yarnd needs to consider this, but that also bothers me. I was actually thinking about making an Internet Archive style twtxt archiver, letting you explore past twts, including long-dead feeds, see edit histories, deleted twts, etc.

@david@collantes.us Well, I wouldn’t recommend using my code for your main jenny use anyway. If you want to try it out, set XDG_CONFIG_HOME and XDG_CACHE_HOME to some sandbox directories and only run my code there. If @movq@www.uninformativ.de is interested in any of this getting upstreamed, I’d be happy to try rebasing the changes, but otherwise it’s a proof of concept and fun exercise.

@falsifian@www.falsifian.org this one hits hard, as jenny was just updated today. :‘-(

BTW this code doesn’t incorporate existing twts into jenny’s database. It’s best used starting from scratch. I’ve been testing it using a custom XDG_CACHE_HOME and XDG_CONFIG_HOME to avoid messing with my “real” jenny data.

I wrote some code to try out non-hash reply subjects formatted as (replyto ), while keeping the ability to use the existing hash style.

I don’t think we need to decide all at once. If clients add support for a new method then people can use it if they like. The downside of course is that this costs developer time, so I decided to invest a few hours of my own time into a proof of concept.

With apologies to @movq@www.uninformativ.de for corrupting jenny’s beautiful code. I don’t write this expecting you to incorporate the patch, because it does complicate things and might not be a direction you want to go in. But if you like any part of this approach feel free to use bits of it; I release the patch under jenny’s current LICENCE.

Supporting both kinds of reply in jenny was complicated because each email can only have one Message-Id, and because it’s possible the target twt will not be seen until after the twt referencing it. The following patch uses an sqlite database to keep track of known (url, timestamp) pairs, as well as a separate table of (url, timestamp) pairs that haven’t been seen yet but are wanted. When one of those “wanted” twts is finally seen, the mail file gets rewritten to include the appropriate In-Reply-To header.

Patch based on jenny commit 73a5ea81.

https://www.falsifian.org/a/oDtr/patch0.txt

Not implemented:

• Composing twts using the (replyto …) format.
  
• Probably other important things I’m forgetting.